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09-17-2016, 01:01 AM,
#1
Cam timing NIGHTMARE (sprag clutch oops)
Hey guys. guy brought me an 06 v star 1100 classic.

i've changed at least 2 dozen sprag clutches in everything from
suzukis, yamahas, triumphs to ducatis, and i've worked on lots of v stars, but i've never
put a sprag clutch ON a v star......... new territory for me.
mostly it's been tires, carbs, electrical, fork seals, blah blah type stuff.

long story short,

took the flywheel off. put a pin in the lower cam gear... replaced
the sprag clutch.... went to install it, and the cam flipped!

obviously, this completely sent the timing of the engine off... i
had no idea that i'd need to get the engine to tdc, etc before i started
this (otherwise i wouldn't have taken the job. it's cost me 14 hours
total for something that i charged 3 hours for including other issues
with aftermarket parts i had to "customize" to make fit. ( the new sprag clutch had to be sanded down on the outer diameter / beveled to fit flat onto the plate or the snap ring wouldn't fit. that cost me 2 hours on its own ( dont buy ebay parts. buy OEM) ... )

anyway..

pulled right cover.

connected the lower dots.

front cam was 180 off.

turned the crank over till T matched the timing hole..

moved rear cam to connect the upper dot with mark on case

installed flywheel (a few steps between this with the rear gear and springs/dowels and key)

everything on the rear appeared to be 100% aligned as far as i could
tell. even with the tensioners in, they looked lined up in the rear.
once i turned the motor over, the FRONT looked like it may be a little
bit off, but, it was nearly impossible to crank the engine without the
valves and rockers n springs pushing the cam back down, blowing RIGHT past the mark and having to go back again and again and again, AND walking
from right to left right to left right to left constantly checking the
timing home trying to align it.

the front cylinder LOOKED like it shoooould be about right, but it has been an educated guess.

so... i did a cold comression test. 7 cranks, no oil in motor, 120 front 90 rear...

did again... same results. did again. same results. within a few psi... 10 cranks cold.. same exact results..
WOT.... yes..


problem : i didn't do a compression test BEFORE i started, because
it wasn't part of the job. so i have no base line. it may be timed
right and just low compression due to no oil and having sat for probably
a year.

other problem is, it's been sitting, for... like i said, probably a
year. the gas smells horrible. guy that the guy bought it from says "2
months" but he's full of it. so.... even if i put fresh gas in it, it
WILL run like crap because the jets and passages are probably clogged. but.. i know the difference between a badly timed engine and bad carbs.. i just don't want to put it together before i know for sure it's timed right. ((( but nothing touches, so i'm not hitting pistons to valves ))


so... my question is..... if the rear cylinder is 1 tooth off on
the flywheel side, would it lose 30 psi compression? or would it be a
DRAMATIC difference.

i dont want to re-assemble the entire bike and put oil in it, just to
have to tear it all back apart again. however, i suppose i could
always move the cam 1 tooth without having to pull the entire cover off
the sides......... right????????

any advice is greatly appreciated. this dude is supposed to be
picking the bike up saturday at some time.... probably more likely
sunday...

if anyone has experience in these things, i would really love the assistance.

thank you

BTW admin : moderators, i had to answer the security question no less than 6 times to get it right... it kept asking if Vstar was a motorcycle. i kept saying yes and it kept kicking me out, so i said NO and it still kicked me out, then it asked what starts with V and ends with R and i did that a few more times. jeeeeezzzzz.... then there's the whole activation thing... :-/ that's a lot for a forum that i need to post 1 question to about a bike i don't own.. lol however, thanks for giving me a place TO post that question... that's the important part..
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09-17-2016, 01:11 AM,
#2
RE: Cam timing NIGHTMARE (sprag clutch oops)
My V-STAR came to me one tooth out of time and yes it did loose a bit of compression but nothing major.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
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09-17-2016, 01:17 AM, (This post was last modified: 09-17-2016, 01:18 AM by mb460.)
#3
RE: Cam timing NIGHTMARE (sprag clutch oops)
(09-17-2016, 01:11 AM)TOTO vstar Wrote: My V-STAR came to me one tooth out of time and yes it did loose a bit of compression but nothing major.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
so technically, it should still run, but not optimally... i know it's not binding on anything, so i'm not going to send a piston into a valve. but i also don't necessarily want to keep pulling the flywheel and moving it back and forth to test it out. i WOULD..... i really would.. but this is a time sensitive thing, and i (sorry to say) really want this dude out of my hair. he calls me daily and texts me constantly. He doesn't understand i can't work on his bike if i'm talking to him. lol ...

(09-17-2016, 01:17 AM)mb460 Wrote:
(09-17-2016, 01:11 AM)TOTO vstar Wrote: My V-STAR came to me one tooth out of time and yes it did loose a bit of compression but nothing major.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
so technically, it should still run, but not optimally... i know it's not binding on anything, so i'm not going to send a piston into a valve. but i also don't necessarily want to keep pulling the flywheel and moving it back and forth to test it out. i WOULD..... i really would.. but this is a time sensitive thing, and i (sorry to say) really want this dude out of my hair. he calls me daily and texts me constantly. He doesn't understand i can't work on his bike if i'm talking to him. lol ...
Iguess there's nothing left to do but to put some gas in it and fire it up and see if it spits flames out the back.
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09-17-2016, 01:19 AM,
#4
RE: Cam timing NIGHTMARE (sprag clutch oops)
Ya I didn't know and rode it like that for months just thinking it was wore out with 120,000 miles.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
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09-17-2016, 01:22 AM,
#5
RE: Cam timing NIGHTMARE (sprag clutch oops)
(09-17-2016, 01:19 AM)TOTO vstar Wrote: Ya I didn't know and rode it like that for months just thinking it was wore out with 120,000 miles.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
lol. yeah, i probably would have too... but 120k is good for any bike. i'm glad bikes are getting that (and double) now. it used to be only goldwings that could get that kind of mileage. most bikes were DONE at 50k miles up till recently... unless it's a ninja, then that's still about right, because people abuse them. lol. anyway thanks. back to work now.
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09-17-2016, 04:19 AM,
#6
RE: Cam timing NIGHTMARE (sprag clutch oops)
just an update for the next few people who find this... i've double triple and quadruple checked timing. it seems to be spot on. at least within half a tooth... one tooth is too far in either direction under tensioner pressure. i think it just has low compression... i'll re-assemble it tomorrow and fire it up. but i think i'm in the clear... and if anyone else ever asks me to do a sprag clutch on one of these bike, i'll probably charge 800 + parts. lol
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09-17-2016, 06:00 AM,
#7
RE: Cam timing NIGHTMARE (sprag clutch oops)
(09-17-2016, 04:19 AM)mb460 Wrote: just an update for the next few people who find this... i've double triple and quadruple checked timing. it seems to be spot on. at least within half a tooth... one tooth is too far in either direction under tensioner pressure. i think it just has low compression... i'll re-assemble it tomorrow and fire it up. but i think i'm in the clear... and if anyone else ever asks me to do a sprag clutch on one of these bike, i'll probably charge 800 + parts. lol
you have to open the throttle all the way to check compression
2007 1100 custom,cobra longs and pods,doubled clutch spring.
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09-17-2016, 11:01 AM,
#8
RE: Cam timing NIGHTMARE (sprag clutch oops)
so which eBay sprag clutch did you buy? I'm replacing mine and can't afford oem just now so if I get a year or two out of one of those for 1/4 the price of oem I'm doing ok..


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
'07 Double One Hundred Custom Black Cherry w/Ghost flames
Cobra Speedster Slashdown pipes
Barons ORK
Disabled AIS
Cobra Carb Needles
Every cage is trying to kill you so always remember, Grip it and Rip it!!!

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09-17-2016, 03:37 PM, (This post was last modified: 09-17-2016, 04:09 PM by mb460.)
#9
RE: Cam timing NIGHTMARE (sprag clutch oops)
(09-17-2016, 06:00 AM)nick59 Wrote:
(09-17-2016, 04:19 AM)mb460 Wrote: just an update for the next few people who find this... i've double triple and quadruple checked timing. it seems to be spot on. at least within half a tooth... one tooth is too far in either direction under tensioner pressure. i think it just has low compression... i'll re-assemble it tomorrow and fire it up. but i think i'm in the clear... and if anyone else ever asks me to do a sprag clutch on one of these bike, i'll probably charge 800 + parts. lol
you have to open the throttle all the way to check compression
The way i do my tests is,
fully charged battery, cold engine, WOT 7 cranks, then 9 cranks. sometimes 11 or 12 if i'm getting weird readings. but that's generally overkill. then i go to the next cylinder. once the engine is running, i do it again hot... WOT 7 9 sometimes 11.. and compare the figures... and i always take the plugs out of every cylinder so the engine isn't fighting itself. if one of the cylinders goes flat or has super low compression, or pulses up and down (Vaccuum / Pressure / vaccuum / pressure, ) then i take the tool off and move it to another cylinder to verify tool again, then go back to the first one.

one time in the distant past on a car:
The first time that i had a cylinder that boosted then went to zero every time the engine spun over, freaked me out and confused me. i thought the tool was broken..

the first test was 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 released pressure, removed the tool tested it on another cyl. did it again, 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0... released pressure, 30 0 30 0 30 0 ,.... then 0 0 0 0 00 again then 12 0 12 0 12 0 .... it was all over the chart and every time it hit compression, it sucked it back down to zero. what it turned out to be, was, a broken push rod and a missing lifter. the first time i did it, the cylinder was TDC... so it showed 0 and drew vacuum. second time, it was just shy of tdc so pushed 10 then sucked it back down to zero mostly under vacuum. the 30, was bottom dead center and shoved 30psi into the tool then sucked it back out... like filling a balloon and then sucking the air back into your lungs... it took me a WHILE to figure out why it was doing that. haha

but.. i've been doing this a while now.. I just ran across something i don't know with the v star timing issue. this is the only bike i have ever seen that pulls timing from a gear instead of directly on the crank. every car, bike, truck, lawn mower, etc that i have ever seen pulls off of the crank. not saying there aren't others out there, but i've never seen one set up like this. and i don't have any idea why yamaha decided to be cute and do it this way lol.

(09-17-2016, 11:01 AM)ET_Geckoe Wrote: so which eBay sprag clutch did you buy? I'm replacing mine and can't afford oem just now so if I get a year or two out of one of those for 1/4 the price of oem I'm doing ok..


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk
soooo, this is the sprag kit i bought...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381727168865?_tr...EBIDX%3AIT

but after some investigation, it's the same manufacturer as most of the ones you find on ebay.

here's what happened to me.. i took it all apart from the bike. went to put the new stuff on there, and the circlip wouldn't fit. the washer completely covered the groove.

so i broke out the calipers and became an engineering nerd for a minute and measured the crap out of every piece every angle to figure out why it wasn't fitting.

they were the same within a reasonable tolerance just about everywhere. the only measurement i couldn't get was overall width.. which turns out, was the issue.

but before i knew that, i swapped various pieces with one another, old gear new plate new clutch, old gear old plate new clutch, new gear old plate blah blah blah blah....

basically... the new clutch won't fit in the old plate and gear.... not the same measurements and the gear binds. so you have to use all of the new pieces together.

i put it back on the flywheel and looked very closely at it from different angles before bolting anything down, and i noticed that the lip on the flywheel was catching the edge of the new plate (the ring part that the sprag clutch inserts into) ... whereas the old piece dropped firmly into place. so... i fired up the belt sander and sanded away the edge until i was 100% confident that the new plate 100% completely bottomed out in the flywheel.

because...... if it doesn't, and you tighten the bolts, it will split the aluminum either on the flywheel or the new piece you just made. whichever is weaker. may not happen immediately, or it may... but it may also happen randomly after about 40 hard hitting starts...

and i honestly assume that 100% of the pieces these dudes have in stock, would do that, and i'm sure a lot of them get sent back, or, people are doing what i did and grind them........... or maybe other bikes don't have the lip on the flywheel and it's not an issue... i couldn't really tell you. but... i had issue with it. but nothing some elbow grease, ingenuity and sandpaper couldn't fix... i just preferred not to have to, on a customer bike that i already under bid. lol. and then there was the timing issue... -_-

with that said, this post reminded me to email the seller, which i just did, informing them of this issue. it was an easy fix, but, i guarantee a LOT of people buying it just leave the washer off and insert the snap ring, and bolt it down with the 4mm gap in it, then bottom out the flywheel and tighten the bolt until it appears tight. which is incredibly dangerous for so many reasons. but people are either lazy, or don't know how to work on bikes because they don't have experience, or are shady mechanic shops who really don't care, etc etc, tons of reasons why.

but i informed the seller that if they are getting a lot of returns, this is why... and asked politely that they contact their wholesaler or the manufacturer and inform them that their tools are out of whack. ((((not that they will.... but i like to think there is a chance that they may))))
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